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	<title>Comments on: Some thoughts on &#8216;Inside the department&#8217; &#8211; posted by Matt Wall</title>
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	<link>http://politicalreform.ie/2012/09/06/some-thoughts-on-inside-the-department-posted-by-matt-wall/</link>
	<description>A PSAI blog for discussion of politics, policy and political reform</description>
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		<title>By: paulthunt</title>
		<link>http://politicalreform.ie/2012/09/06/some-thoughts-on-inside-the-department-posted-by-matt-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-10894</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[paulthunt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://politicalreform.ie/?p=3678#comment-10894</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Golding Kidd,

Thank you.  Irish affection for the &#039;cute hoor&#039; dates back to colonial times.  &quot;The Irish RM&quot;, by Somerville and Ross, is the &#039;locus classicus&#039;.  There seems to be this lingering belief that if the &#039;cute hoor&#039; does well he&#039;ll benefit others - ot that the emulation of his sharp practice will advance people&#039;s interests.  In any event, he provides great entertainment and material for gossip and tall rales.  It appears it will take a long time before a majority of the irish population will be convinced that &#039;cute hoorism&#039; is &#039;negative-sum&#039; game.

It looks like we&#039;re shaping up for a conflict between Official Ireland and the many &#039;insiders&#039; it protects - represented by FG, FF and Labour - and those on the &#039;outside&#039; - increasing rapidly in numbers and being represented by SF and the hard left.

Some Labour TDs are not unaware of the pitfalls.  The Labour Party chair presents a disingenuous justification for, at least, some in Labour taking up the cudgels on behalf of some of the &#039;outsiders&#039; (in today&#039;s IT).  He might be more convincing if his seat was not at serious risk following the decision to cut the number of TDs and if he were a bit more convinced about the primacy of the Dail in addressing and resolving these conflicts.

The only question that remains is whether the established parties will recognise the &#039;writing on the wall&#039; and change tack before the next election or decide to hunker down and hope to weather the coming storm.

My money is on the latter.  The overwhelming pressure is on FG and Labour to hang together rather than be hanged separately.  FF will hedge its bets, behave in its usual opportunistic fashion and hope that it will secure more seats than SF at the next general election.

Until then I&#039;m afraid we&#039;ll have to sit and watch the social divides expand and become more glaring while the domestic economy sinks in to the mire.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Golding Kidd,</p>
<p>Thank you.  Irish affection for the &#8216;cute hoor&#8217; dates back to colonial times.  &#8220;The Irish RM&#8221;, by Somerville and Ross, is the &#8216;locus classicus&#8217;.  There seems to be this lingering belief that if the &#8216;cute hoor&#8217; does well he&#8217;ll benefit others &#8211; ot that the emulation of his sharp practice will advance people&#8217;s interests.  In any event, he provides great entertainment and material for gossip and tall rales.  It appears it will take a long time before a majority of the irish population will be convinced that &#8216;cute hoorism&#8217; is &#8216;negative-sum&#8217; game.</p>
<p>It looks like we&#8217;re shaping up for a conflict between Official Ireland and the many &#8216;insiders&#8217; it protects &#8211; represented by FG, FF and Labour &#8211; and those on the &#8216;outside&#8217; &#8211; increasing rapidly in numbers and being represented by SF and the hard left.</p>
<p>Some Labour TDs are not unaware of the pitfalls.  The Labour Party chair presents a disingenuous justification for, at least, some in Labour taking up the cudgels on behalf of some of the &#8216;outsiders&#8217; (in today&#8217;s IT).  He might be more convincing if his seat was not at serious risk following the decision to cut the number of TDs and if he were a bit more convinced about the primacy of the Dail in addressing and resolving these conflicts.</p>
<p>The only question that remains is whether the established parties will recognise the &#8216;writing on the wall&#8217; and change tack before the next election or decide to hunker down and hope to weather the coming storm.</p>
<p>My money is on the latter.  The overwhelming pressure is on FG and Labour to hang together rather than be hanged separately.  FF will hedge its bets, behave in its usual opportunistic fashion and hope that it will secure more seats than SF at the next general election.</p>
<p>Until then I&#8217;m afraid we&#8217;ll have to sit and watch the social divides expand and become more glaring while the domestic economy sinks in to the mire.</p>
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		<title>By: Golding Kidd</title>
		<link>http://politicalreform.ie/2012/09/06/some-thoughts-on-inside-the-department-posted-by-matt-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-10874</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Golding Kidd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://politicalreform.ie/?p=3678#comment-10874</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul , good points and well made - note you are an economist but like all economists of different hues each has alternative views .and varying opinions . I am just an ordinary bod still learning after 4 score ! and have seen it all and the same mistakes being repeated following from greed , averice and self interest. I am not so self righteous as not to admit that I also have made mistakes in my personal life with which I have had to cope but none of such magnitude to put me &amp;/or my family at risk - like the way the elected representatives handled the financial affairs of the Irish family placing them in hock for generations. If I had done so I do not believe I would be brazen enough or have the temerity to stand before those who had entrusted me with the task - I would vanish into the mist as has become the fate of some - not by choice but by being ousted from office. .Your ref to SF is a possibility and of course that would follow from the fickleness of those who gift the franchise, that shocking unpredictable &#039;mind set&#039; of the electorate for the cute hoor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul , good points and well made &#8211; note you are an economist but like all economists of different hues each has alternative views .and varying opinions . I am just an ordinary bod still learning after 4 score ! and have seen it all and the same mistakes being repeated following from greed , averice and self interest. I am not so self righteous as not to admit that I also have made mistakes in my personal life with which I have had to cope but none of such magnitude to put me &amp;/or my family at risk &#8211; like the way the elected representatives handled the financial affairs of the Irish family placing them in hock for generations. If I had done so I do not believe I would be brazen enough or have the temerity to stand before those who had entrusted me with the task &#8211; I would vanish into the mist as has become the fate of some &#8211; not by choice but by being ousted from office. .Your ref to SF is a possibility and of course that would follow from the fickleness of those who gift the franchise, that shocking unpredictable &#8216;mind set&#8217; of the electorate for the cute hoor.</p>
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		<title>By: paulthunt</title>
		<link>http://politicalreform.ie/2012/09/06/some-thoughts-on-inside-the-department-posted-by-matt-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-10866</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[paulthunt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:32:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://politicalreform.ie/?p=3678#comment-10866</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt &amp; Golding Kidd,

I see where you&#039;e coming frm, but, as an economist I tend to fall back on good old demand and supply.  TDs are purveyors of representation and governance.  It&#039;s up to them to develop better offers.  Voters rightly cherish their ultimate power to choose.  But the revealed problem is the nature of representation and governance between elections.  However, voters are still stuck with the choices put before them.

If the three main established parties stick to their current tack there is a stronmg possibility that SF will refine its combination of populist, atavistic, isolationist nationalism (which tends to be the preserve of the extreme, xenophobic, unhinged right in other EU member-states) and emply, but potentially dangerous, hard left rhetoric to give the established parties a bit of a drubbing and secure power at the next general election with some other fellow-travellers.

In my view, the possibility of this outcome is the only thing that will force the established political class to offer better representation and governance.  The risk of the loss of power is the only incentive they understand.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt &amp; Golding Kidd,</p>
<p>I see where you&#8217;e coming frm, but, as an economist I tend to fall back on good old demand and supply.  TDs are purveyors of representation and governance.  It&#8217;s up to them to develop better offers.  Voters rightly cherish their ultimate power to choose.  But the revealed problem is the nature of representation and governance between elections.  However, voters are still stuck with the choices put before them.</p>
<p>If the three main established parties stick to their current tack there is a stronmg possibility that SF will refine its combination of populist, atavistic, isolationist nationalism (which tends to be the preserve of the extreme, xenophobic, unhinged right in other EU member-states) and emply, but potentially dangerous, hard left rhetoric to give the established parties a bit of a drubbing and secure power at the next general election with some other fellow-travellers.</p>
<p>In my view, the possibility of this outcome is the only thing that will force the established political class to offer better representation and governance.  The risk of the loss of power is the only incentive they understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Golding Kidd</title>
		<link>http://politicalreform.ie/2012/09/06/some-thoughts-on-inside-the-department-posted-by-matt-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-10865</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Golding Kidd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://politicalreform.ie/?p=3678#comment-10865</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul , i always use the story of sitting around with a few friends (8)discussing the culture of &#039;cute hoorism&#039; in the society in which we live and posing the question of how &#039;we the citizens&#039; could rid the country of this pernicious and corrosive mind set. A large majority 
(7 out of 8) made a negative response which surprised me because it gave me the impression that thay had an admiration for the &#039;cute hoor&#039;. I quite agree that the change has to come from the &#039;political classes&#039; &amp; I&#039;m sure you will accept that the &#039;political classes&#039; come from &#039;we the citizens&#039; so it is a matter of &#039;collective responsibility&#039; I would submit.  Go and sin no more ! .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul , i always use the story of sitting around with a few friends (8)discussing the culture of &#8216;cute hoorism&#8217; in the society in which we live and posing the question of how &#8216;we the citizens&#8217; could rid the country of this pernicious and corrosive mind set. A large majority<br />
(7 out of 8) made a negative response which surprised me because it gave me the impression that thay had an admiration for the &#8216;cute hoor&#8217;. I quite agree that the change has to come from the &#8216;political classes&#8217; &amp; I&#8217;m sure you will accept that the &#8216;political classes&#8217; come from &#8216;we the citizens&#8217; so it is a matter of &#8216;collective responsibility&#8217; I would submit.  Go and sin no more ! .</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Wall</title>
		<link>http://politicalreform.ie/2012/09/06/some-thoughts-on-inside-the-department-posted-by-matt-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-10863</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew Wall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://politicalreform.ie/?p=3678#comment-10863</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know Paul - for me, limiting oneself to acceptance of and reaction to the status quo is a problematic mindset. As you say, there&#039;s little hope in waiting for professional politicians to reform the very system that brought them to power.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know Paul &#8211; for me, limiting oneself to acceptance of and reaction to the status quo is a problematic mindset. As you say, there&#8217;s little hope in waiting for professional politicians to reform the very system that brought them to power.</p>
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		<title>By: paulthunt</title>
		<link>http://politicalreform.ie/2012/09/06/some-thoughts-on-inside-the-department-posted-by-matt-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-10862</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[paulthunt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://politicalreform.ie/?p=3678#comment-10862</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This focus on a &#039;change of mindset among the public&#039; bothers me a bit.  The behaviour of the vast majority of voters is perfectly rational in the context of the constraints and incentives they encounter.  If all TDs and aspiring TDs sell themselves, and subsequently, if elected, act, almost exclusively as mini-ombudspersons and constituency advocates and &#039;the party&#039; as the means of providing &#039;governance&#039; that is only spelled out in ear-pleasing slogans, then it is difficult to blame the &#039;public&#039; for choosing among the selection of rogues in front of them.  The &#039;change of mindset&#039; has to come from the political classes.  And they have no real incentive to change it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This focus on a &#8216;change of mindset among the public&#8217; bothers me a bit.  The behaviour of the vast majority of voters is perfectly rational in the context of the constraints and incentives they encounter.  If all TDs and aspiring TDs sell themselves, and subsequently, if elected, act, almost exclusively as mini-ombudspersons and constituency advocates and &#8216;the party&#8217; as the means of providing &#8216;governance&#8217; that is only spelled out in ear-pleasing slogans, then it is difficult to blame the &#8216;public&#8217; for choosing among the selection of rogues in front of them.  The &#8216;change of mindset&#8217; has to come from the political classes.  And they have no real incentive to change it.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Wall</title>
		<link>http://politicalreform.ie/2012/09/06/some-thoughts-on-inside-the-department-posted-by-matt-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-10860</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew Wall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://politicalreform.ie/?p=3678#comment-10860</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes - a change of mindset among the public is vital - without that there&#039;s very little that any process can do to re-invigorate Irish democracy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes &#8211; a change of mindset among the public is vital &#8211; without that there&#8217;s very little that any process can do to re-invigorate Irish democracy.</p>
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		<title>By: Golding Kidd</title>
		<link>http://politicalreform.ie/2012/09/06/some-thoughts-on-inside-the-department-posted-by-matt-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-10859</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Golding Kidd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://politicalreform.ie/?p=3678#comment-10859</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt &amp; Paul - thank you for ref to IT article . Regarding the names on this &#039;charade&#039; Citizen Assembly - I woud hope that all the names would be published and that the electorate can lobby them for a strategy that &#039;we the citizens&#039; require of them. They will not and must not be stooges of  the coalition - and the electorate have the responsibility to spell this out clearly; the gov may think that they (the 66) will do their bidding . The remainder who should be a selection from all parties including reps from N I will also be subject of lobbying and under the  influence of  &#039;we the citizens&#039; and if it is to be a truly democratic and deliberative process then we could hold out some hope of an effective Assembly for the Reforms  that are so urgently needed to save us from ourselves; the corruption and incompetence from on high. 
Perhapts our 66 can be asked to address (my hobby horse !) the &#039;mind set&#039; - maybe to ask the &#039;churches&#039; to concentrate their minds on the basis of our laws - just for starters - The Ten Commandments or whatever relevant guidelines are used by other persuasions !]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt &amp; Paul &#8211; thank you for ref to IT article . Regarding the names on this &#8216;charade&#8217; Citizen Assembly &#8211; I woud hope that all the names would be published and that the electorate can lobby them for a strategy that &#8216;we the citizens&#8217; require of them. They will not and must not be stooges of  the coalition &#8211; and the electorate have the responsibility to spell this out clearly; the gov may think that they (the 66) will do their bidding . The remainder who should be a selection from all parties including reps from N I will also be subject of lobbying and under the  influence of  &#8216;we the citizens&#8217; and if it is to be a truly democratic and deliberative process then we could hold out some hope of an effective Assembly for the Reforms  that are so urgently needed to save us from ourselves; the corruption and incompetence from on high.<br />
Perhapts our 66 can be asked to address (my hobby horse !) the &#8216;mind set&#8217; &#8211; maybe to ask the &#8216;churches&#8217; to concentrate their minds on the basis of our laws &#8211; just for starters &#8211; The Ten Commandments or whatever relevant guidelines are used by other persuasions !</p>
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		<title>By: paulthunt</title>
		<link>http://politicalreform.ie/2012/09/06/some-thoughts-on-inside-the-department-posted-by-matt-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-10854</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[paulthunt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://politicalreform.ie/?p=3678#comment-10854</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sure the Government is well aware of the dangers.  Every sinew will be strained to avoid them.  The unfortunate citizens who&#039;ll be importuned will be feted, lauded and cosseted because they will be doing &#039;something really, really important for ireland&#039;, er, the Government..

However, it needs only one informed, clued-in and articulate individual to get the ball rolling in the right direction - as highlighted in the movie &quot;Twelve Angry Men&quot;.

Even if this doesn&#039;t happen, in this age of instant and widespread communication, all 66 will have contact with people outside the process.  I expect the Government will try to impose all sorts of secrecy and confidentiality constraints.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure the Government is well aware of the dangers.  Every sinew will be strained to avoid them.  The unfortunate citizens who&#8217;ll be importuned will be feted, lauded and cosseted because they will be doing &#8216;something really, really important for ireland&#8217;, er, the Government..</p>
<p>However, it needs only one informed, clued-in and articulate individual to get the ball rolling in the right direction &#8211; as highlighted in the movie &#8220;Twelve Angry Men&#8221;.</p>
<p>Even if this doesn&#8217;t happen, in this age of instant and widespread communication, all 66 will have contact with people outside the process.  I expect the Government will try to impose all sorts of secrecy and confidentiality constraints.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Wall</title>
		<link>http://politicalreform.ie/2012/09/06/some-thoughts-on-inside-the-department-posted-by-matt-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-10853</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew Wall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://politicalreform.ie/?p=3678#comment-10853</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It would be amazing if something like that happened. The government could be opening a Pandora&#039;s Box here - I would love to see the citizens take active control of the process. My guess is that if they do so they will be undermined at every step by the political establishment. Still, if the selection process really is as promised (I guess the 33 politicos will be government nominees?) then there is some hope that the citizens will take control of their own assembly. My suggestion is that they proceed immediately to redefine their agenda.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be amazing if something like that happened. The government could be opening a Pandora&#8217;s Box here &#8211; I would love to see the citizens take active control of the process. My guess is that if they do so they will be undermined at every step by the political establishment. Still, if the selection process really is as promised (I guess the 33 politicos will be government nominees?) then there is some hope that the citizens will take control of their own assembly. My suggestion is that they proceed immediately to redefine their agenda.</p>
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